li pigment question

emma 344 posts Aug 25, 2010 3:46 AM	I used espresso and ungrey on a fitzparick #5 client an it healed too dark on a client. She didnt want them black, but they healed black. I tried tattooing them with a lighter color before espresso but it was too light to even see it. The espresso color even looked light but healed black. What do you recommend I put over it when she comes in for her followup visit to lighten it? She wanted a dark brown. This was done her her brows.
Lizzy 1121 posts Aug 27, 2010 7:16 AM	Lighten Up is good for lightening up an little too dark of a brow. Do one or two good passes and see what that does for her. If your looking to really brown them up I might try UnGray or Carribean Mod. I'd like to hear what the other girls have to say.Rozan woks on a ton of darker skins. What technique did you use and needle grouping? With your higher Fitz's it's likely your color will heal darker than when they walk out. ---------- Lizzy Elizabeth Rose http://www.CosmeticInk.net
mariec5454 136 posts Aug 28, 2010 2:44 AM	This has happened to me and I used Lighten Up with hairstrokes. Turned out really nice. Marie
emma 345 posts Aug 29, 2010 8:59 AM	Sorry it took so long for me to respond, my dog got run over and had surgery, I havnt been home much. What colors do you recommend for african american skin that will be a lighter shade. Hopefully a brownish black. Maybe 1/2 navajo and 1/2 esspresso and ungrey?
Rozan 814 posts Aug 30, 2010 9:54 AM	I would add warmth instead of thinking lighter (to begin with). LI Espresso tends to go cool, especially in Fitz 5 or 6 (which is fine if they want a darker type of brow). Then after a good saturation of warmth, if they come back and they’re still too dark, think ochre. Just my opinion. Think of Ochre as our lightening color. Be carefull of any color with too much white in it. But of course this is all without seeing just how dark they are. Sometimes going in with Ochre at first is a good idea. Can you post a picture? ---------- Rose Ann Cloud, CPCP Permanent Cosmetics By Rozan www.RozanCloud.com
emma 346 posts Aug 31, 2010 9:32 AM	I cant send a picture, She called me and told me this. thanks for your help.
Ms. M 360 posts Sep 01, 2010 6:20 PM	African American skin can be a lighter brown, medium brown or very dark brown. Just saying African American doesn't give enough information. What Fitzpatrick type is she? If lighter, I've even used Hazelnut and got good results. It depends on what she prefers for color. Have her give you the pencil or powder she uses to put on her own brows as a guide. If a medium brown, my current is LI Hazelnut with Navajo ,mix and adding a bit of Ungrey. If her skin is a Fitzpatrick VI my fav is LI Ebony Brown with about a fourth of the mixture being Ungray. The darker the skin the more you can anticipate an ashing of the color.
emma 347 posts Sep 02, 2010 6:47 AM	She is a fitzpatrick five. The problem of using a lighter color is that it dosnt show up while I am tattooing and I lose my guide. I used navajo and ungrey first, but it was too hard to see. The espresso and ugery even looked light.
emma 348 posts Sep 02, 2010 6:53 AM	I forgot to mention that I use the infinity machine. #5 tight needle. solid brow.
Ms. M 362 posts Sep 02, 2010 8:40 AM	Emma, it sounds to me like your primary problem is keeping your template in place while using a color that looks too light but heales too dark. You need to employ a technique that keeps you on target with your eyebrow design while tattooing. I would think you would not want to use a pigment color that you know is going to heal too dark just so you can see it while tattooing. So, wouldn't the problem be a technique to keep your brow design true to what you and the client agreed upon while tattooing?
emma 349 posts Sep 02, 2010 10:32 AM	I used to put dots with a marker around the pencil but sometimes the dots come off so I stopped that. Now I numb, pencil the shape, then tattoo over the pencil. I guess I can try this with darker skin. But will the marker show up where I can see it? I dont remember having that problem before, but its been so long since I did it that way.
emma 350 posts Sep 02, 2010 10:37 AM	Another thing that I am wondering about is that I am just starting to use li pigments. I never had this problem until now. I was looking for a new pigment line that lasts longer on the skin. Could this be happening because there isnt any fading? When these colors heal, they dont lighten like the other pigments. I am not use to this.
Ms. M 366 posts Sep 05, 2010 11:44 AM	Emma you have a lot going on and I feel you need to solve one problem at a time. First of all be very cautious in using a tight needle configureation on African American skin or at all for brows. It depends on the footprint you want to leave in the skin. Often brow outcome desired is softer and less pigment concentratration. A tight needle will result in a stronger concentration of pigment. Now, if that is what you want, fine, but the needle plays a big part in the outcome of how the procedure looks when healed. African Americans may tend to scar more easily than other skin types and a tight sharp needle can do this more easily than a shader type needle. Second of all and possibily the most important, you need to develop a technique that allows you to keep the brow template the client agreed to in place. There are many techniques for this and your prior dotting technique is one of them. There are better and worse markers for this purpose. SofTap sells a medical marker with an extra fine tip that usually lasts at least through the first pass. I've tried other brands only to have them smear or dissapear too soon. You might want to go back to the dotting method that worked for you before but use a brand of marker that will serve you well. And then there is the new pigment line issue. Anytime we change pigment brands or choose a particular new color in a brand we have not used before there is a learning curve. Rather than depend on the lightening during healing, which always happens due to exfoliation of the outer layer of the skin (but may appear more as a softening effect depending on the skin type) since this is now an unknown factor to you (how much will it lighten?) just go with a lighter color to begin with. It can always be darkened at the follow up appointment. Working conservatively never is a bad idea. People with Fitzpatrick 4-6 skin just may add a bit of color in the healing process because of hyperpigmenation. Now whether that lasts for an extended period of time is client specific. I just feel you have so much going on that you need to focus on one of the issues and then move on to the next. To me, keeping the brow template in place will solve the problem of possibily mismatched eyebrows from loosing your original design while tattooing without a firm guide to follow and as a result you are trying to use darker colors to make it easier for you to see while tattooing. I wish you luck. Last Edited on 5-Sep-2010 11:46 AM
emma 351 posts Sep 06, 2010 6:29 AM	you are right. I will have to try to mark the brows better on this type of skin if they want a brownish shade. I am going to order that marker from soft tap. I am actually trying out 4 different lines of pigments right now, not just li pigments. I was using cleo for a long time, which I liked but I felt that it faded to quickly so I got itchy to try another line but didnt know what one to try so I am trying all the ones that I was curiuos about. It will take a year or two for me to know. actually its been a year since I started this so I cant wait to see my clients come back and see how they faded.
emma 352 posts Sep 06, 2010 4:46 PM	I got thinking about this and came up with an idea! I can tattoo a couple of passes with a lighter shade like navajo but dont use ungrey, so I can see it, then do a pass with ungrey on top! Has anyone tried this?
Ms. M 367 posts Sep 06, 2010 10:38 PM	I don't recommend your line of thinking. Develop a technique to keep your template in place regardless of the lightness of the color you are using. You seem to be willing to do anything but this. You have a client who is dependent on you using a color that will heal flattering to her. How do you think she would respond if you say Mrs. Jones, I'm using this color because I can't see a lighter color. I don't think that would go over well. Nor do I think overall your brow colors will be what you ultimately would like them to be. I've said this several times and I'll make a final offering. Develop a technique to keep your brow template in place. Use colors that are good for the client, not as a substitute seeing eye dog for brows. This is all I have to offer on this subject. Last Edited on 6-Sep-2010 11:02 PM
emma 353 posts Sep 07, 2010 8:05 AM	I dont think you understand me. without using ungrey, it would be dark enough for me to see, then I can go over it with ungrey, on the same procedure not the followup visit. you dont have to answer. I am also done with this suject. thanks for your tips.
Stylishus 34 posts Sep 07, 2010 11:26 AM	I'm going to say something that may be perceived as "scolding" but I have to speak my mind! Emma, why would you take the time to post your issues, looking for solutions, and then dismiss the answers? I'm sure you realize that the answers you received are from some of the best known Artists in our industry. Pigments are not crayons, and those who took the time to respond gave you very sound advice, and yet you continue down the same path of poor results? If you're just going to come up with your own ideas....why post here? To those who so graciously answered, thank you. I always read each post carefully and heed the advice of those who have years of experience, it is much appreciated!
val 2 posts Sep 07, 2010 4:57 PM	Hey Emma, here's a tip for outlining that might help you. I use a surgical scrub on the skin to first cleanse the entire area to be free from bacteria and skin oils (such as Hibicleanse) . Wearing gloves, I use a disposable traditional brow pencil and draw the entire brow design as the client desires. Then the design is outlined using the "dot method" and once it has dried I clean the skin again with an alcohol free surgical skin scrub (Hibiclense - it won't remove your marker). I will re-dot if necessary. I do not tattoo over brow pencil, I think it's unclean and with the proper skin prep I don't find that it comes off even on oily skin. It is my opinion when it comes to darker skin tones (depending on which undertone they are) more warmth is always good since their skin tones are cooler even though they appear warm. If un-grey isn't "strong enough" try using a more bold insurance color to balance the cool tones in the pigment and also her skin. Good luck.
emma 354 posts Sep 08, 2010 6:48 AM	I am not dissagreeing with mrs m. I just thought of something else that could work too. I appreciate all the help I get on this chat room. Sometimes you have to think out of the box and try other things that might work. Remember, I said mrs. m was RIGHT. I agree totally with what she said. I guess it is how it looks in writing. Thanks val, for your tip, thats the reason that I stopped using the marker. one time it came off and I stopped doing it that way. I am going to try that. I dont think pigments are crayons. I care very much about my clients and how the color turns out. why do you think I asked the question on this board. I was afraid to ask, because one other time I asked a question and got the 3rd degree. this will be the last time I ever ask for any help. I thought maybe someone else had the same problem and could use the help too.
Maggie 1958 posts Sep 08, 2010 8:01 AM	Am I missing something here? As far as I can tell, you have not even SEEN how this actually looks, right? By the time she gets into her six weeks of healing before the touch up all this can be a non issue. She might be having some hyperpigmentation going on at the same time. So as of right now, the client's interpretation of 'black" may mean that the color has simply ashed out and you will maybe only need to apply a corrector and let her be. What is your plan as of now?
emma 355 posts Sep 08, 2010 8:51 AM	This has also happened to another client. when she came back, I used lighten up from soft tap but I never saw her healed results. Thats usually what I use. but li is new to me and I know that a lot of technicians use it on this board so I thought that I would get someones opinion on here. I have been trying to get a hold of the other client to see how they turned out, but she never called me back. thats why I wanted to ask here. she did finally call me this morning and said that the corrective color I used over them lightened them up and she is happy with them. I wont use the same colors on her next time, beleive me!so now I will use the same color on this client to lighten them. I dont have lighten up from li, thats why I used soft taps. I know what everyone is thinking, why did I do it twice? I didnt want to use the darker shade but at the time, I didnt know what else to do. I couldnt see the lighter shade, so I went darker. Dark pigmented skin is such a challenge when they want a light color. I have learned alot from this.
LLinDE 32 posts Sep 08, 2010 10:48 AM	Lighten Up from Softap is not a pigment. did you just say you used that on an entire brow to lighten it and havent seen the results?! That is a corrective tool - for small spots or 2 tails or stray marks - not to lighten a color over an entire brow! Totally different aftercare instructions. NOT a pigment.
emma 356 posts Sep 08, 2010 5:11 PM	I said that the other client finally called me and said they looked fine after I lightened them. I have used similar pigments from other lines that are the same color and never had a problem. I was afraid to use anything darker because I know how hard it is to lighten a brow. I didnt want them darker. I dont use it as a (beiging out) pigment. I dont do that. I use salt and saline for what you are talking about.
emma 357 posts Sep 08, 2010 5:27 PM	I know that I said that I was done with this subject but, I got thinking, why go through all this when I can just use the other pigments that worked fine for me. li pigments have actually been the hardest colors to use compared to all the ones that I am trying because either they heal darker or not much lighter. even with the lighter shades. So far my favorites are sahara, breve, and creme latte and latte. The first color I used was autumn gold. and it healed darker and cooler that I thought it would. I am looking for a pigment line that lasts longer but I find it harder to pick colors for clients. Just my opinion. I am not going to use this line for darker colored skin tones. I will use the lighter ones though. so far. I have used other shades from li, but I havnt seen them healed yet except hazelnut which I used on my daughter. I was really nervous when I did them because they looked a little dark and I was afraid that they wouldnt lighten. They lightened a little and look fine now.
Jane Adler 1189 posts Sep 09, 2010 12:00 PM	Just an FYI, Lighten up is the very old name for Lemonaid (yellow corrective color). Lighting is the paste. Keep in mind the darker skin tones take longer to oxidize. If cannot see after first pass apply topical and let set up for about 8 to 10 minutes and u will magically see all. Best way to not over work color. Also great for super light brows too. Sounds like u over worked the brows so the dark deposit. When working with more concentrated pigments like LI or SofTap, cut down your work time. Takes less work to get great results. Every pigment line u use u have to learn how to use the colors. That is on u not the colors. All about technique and learning what u are working with. ---------- Jane Adler, CPCP Facial Art by Jane SofTap® Distributor Tattoos http://janeadler.blogspot.com/ http://www.janeadler.com
emma 358 posts Sep 09, 2010 1:10 PM	Thanks for for the info jane. I am not blaming the piments for my mistakes. I never realised I would run into this problem. I didnt think about what you said before about waiting until it sets in the skin. I will try that too. I am sorry, I forgot that lighten up is called lemonaid. everyone has helped me alot, I appreciate it. I am learning alot from all this. I am also trying soft tap colors too, but I havnt run into any problems.
LLinDE 48 posts Sep 16, 2010 3:19 PM	My mistake, Sorry Emma - I thought you meant you used the SofTap Lightning. Thank you for spotting my error, Jane.

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