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Permanent Makeup

Desperately Seeking Eyeliner Help

BGTD 72 posts Jul 13, 2010 11:08 PM	In chatting with another local PMU artist about soliciting for advice on an Internet board about some really effective ways to get great results with permanent eyeliner the response was "Ha! Do you REALLY think those gals are going give away all their hard fought secrets? And for free? On an online forum for thousands to see?" "Good luck with that. Let me know how that works out for ya." But I digress. I'm of the opinion that there is some great information out there/here that would be willing to be shared in terms of some great tips regarding getting really thick dark eyeliner to stay on. Some of my clients are coming back with very very little left. It's frustrating because I can't quite pinpoint the reason(s) why it's holding for some and not so much on others. Why the inconsistency?!? The mind races: is it the pigment color/brand? the needle used? the machine settings? the needles angle? or - gasp! - it's depth? And no Liza I never use the tube tip as a measure of depth smile (great article BTW). I'm a little discouraged. Brows, not a problem. But that damn eyeliner is becoming a real thorn. So I need some real quality advice. What are some of the things during an eyeliner procedure that you ALWAYS make sure you do in order to get good results? BTW I am currently using a Neo Tat liner machine with typically 5R's and 8R's for eyeliner. Soft Tap, DI, or LI pigments. Thank you for your time! BGTD
Jane Adler 1179 posts Jul 13, 2010 11:43 PM	It is all in the grip! Without the proper stretch pigments, needles and settings come secondary. Ya need the proper foundation for all the other things to work like needle angle and yes depth. Your grip needs to adjust to each individual canvas. ---------- Jane Adler, CPCP Facial Art by Jane SofTap® Distributor Tattoos http://janeadler.blogspot.com/ http://www.janeadler.com
Brandy 815 posts Jul 14, 2010 8:21 AM	For me, it's the grip and the angle of the needle. But it can be so many different things: -condition of the skin -do they tear alot -do they squint making grip more difficult -are they nervous, making you nervous -too much solder on the needle can make it drag in the tube, inhibiting pigment flow -imperfections in the disposable tube can hinder pigment flow -running the machine too fast -pigment has coagulated, room too hot or fans running -pigment has dried in tube tip etc, etc, etc,
KatALyst 317 posts Jul 14, 2010 3:02 PM	My rule of thumb, because when I started, I applied enough eyeliner that we thought we look good, then we realized that you loose at least one third maybe even one half of the amount of color you put on. When you apply eyeliner, there is always at least some puffiness and that will make your line look thicker than it actually is. If you do one eye at a time, and you look at the eyelash rim and even get an idea of how much puffier it is than the untouched eye. So even though you think you are applying a nice perhaps wide eyeliner, if you are not placing at least one or two lines' width more, imagine that it is going to shrink. This is how I judge how much thickness to give them: -During consultation, take Before Photo and instantly print it out, place a piece of non-shiney clear tape over their eyes, take a pencil and draw on exactly what would look good as a finished result. When the client is happy with how much is on the picture, I now know how much that particular client wants. I explain to the client that they should leave with more eyeliner than they actually want to stay (or when I give them the mirror, if they want to stop with that and heal, if they are conservative, they can too.) -After I apply the eyeliner in the lashline, and then above it, I give the mirror to the client. If she says that she loves it the way it is, I explain that it will disappear by at least a third to a half. If she loves it the way it is now and wants that much to stay, that we should add an extra line to make sure it stays that much. If she looks at it, and it is a little bit much for her, then we know that will be just right when it heals. When I am through with the top and bottom of the first eye, I get a cold fresh unused teabag out of the fridge, place it on the eye while I work on the other one. By the time we have finished the last eye, that first one has already thinned up quite a bit from the teabag sitting on it. That's how much of what you see is actually initial swelling tissues or puffiness. (By the way, I typically spend 30 minutes of application time on each eye lid.) If your problem is with color retention, then when you stretch, you should not be able to see 'skin' color showing up underneath. If you stretch good and have nice dark color with no light spots showing, that usually is a good sign that your color is saturated. (You still have to use proper stretching and get adequate depth. I usually can tell when I have a good stretch, and am applying at a proper depth, its almost like the skin resists me a little. -not the same as getting the needle stuck tho.-) I love 7R or 8R for eyeliner, I can't imagine using a smaller needle size. If you are applying thick eyeliners, 8R is right on the money. (My machines only give me 7 so I take it.) So my advice is include the client, show her what you have after a little while, tell her it won't stay that thick, and ask if she wants just a little more or if it looks a little heavy right now. She can always let it heal and add a little more later. Remember that in addition to applying in the lash line, you have to apply it above that if you want it to look like eyeliner at all. If you are doing all of this, welcome to the world of PMU. Why do you think eyeliners have always been and will always be my LEAST favorite procedure to apply. ---------- ~Kat, CPCP~ SPCP Member & Certified Western KY www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com Last Edited on 14-Jul-2010 3:07 PM
Ms. M 351 posts Jul 14, 2010 3:02 PM	What device and needle size are you using? Do you know the size (not the cluster size but the size of the needle)? Living in California I work on so many different skin types. When I first begin eyeliner, I just put in a small amount at the outer position and then check to see if all things are as they should be. Slow my mahcine down? Stretch a little differently? The chosen needle performing as expected? Pigment color look good? I check out all these elements before I go forward with the eyeliner. If anything doesn't look as it should with the small test area, I change something until it does. By doing so I'm assured that I'll get a highly satruated liner once I wipe. Works for me.
BGTD 73 posts Jul 14, 2010 3:22 PM	Kat/Jane - Thanks. The stretching thing is something I think I really need to work on. I've seen it done both ways - stretching and doing small sections and I've seen eyeliner done with a 6 flat on it's side with no stretching at all - just a long continuous line over the upper and lower lid - both ways have worked. It's seems so "individualistic", know what I mean? It's hard sometimes to get a really tight stretch and I'm always afraid that I will hurt them by stretching too hard (funny that I feel like that considering I'm sticking a needle in their eyelid over and over again..ha.) Ms. M-I'm using a Neo Liner with standard 5's and 8's shaders (12's). I've tried the bugpin 5's - they were ok. I'm thinking maybe I should try a shader Neo Tat for eyeliner?
Ms. M 352 posts Jul 14, 2010 6:10 PM	I've had absolutely no luck with a Nouveau #5. Actually in one of my classes, we ran a lower liner with the #5 Nouveau on one lower lid and a #5 Meicha-Pro Sapphire on the other. There was no contest. The #5 Meicha (which is a #10 bug bin size needle cluster) ran a tight nice line where the Nouveau looked like it had bounced off and didn't leave much evidence. Interestingly enough, on the Nouveau you might try the 3 point liner (the larger of the number 3 needles.) If I am training with the Nouveau, that's the needle I head for. Not that you won't have to work a little more if it is a thick liner liner as we all have to for thicker lines, but you may get a better saturation of pigment and possibily better results. The problem with these little pens, and I adore my Meicha Pro Sapphire, don't misunderstand me, I do, is that they are not consistant with the results that people that use the coil and the neo tat get. Those are devices that take such a wide range of needles that as an artist YOU get to choose what that needle footprint looks like because you have so many choices. With the pens, and the digitals, you get what you get and you have to mess around with them to see what works well for you. In the pen arena, I chose Meicha for a couple of reasons. 1. I have used that device for eyeliners since I began. It's part of how I think and personally I think it is one of the finest pen eyeliner machines if not the best out there. Second, the size of the needles. The #3 Meicha needle is actually a #12 and the #5 a #10. The Meicha I-Star has the same needle sizes. Not often seen in pen or digitals. Ray at Neo Tat was nice enough to measure the sizes of several needle types of the Nouveau and Meicha devices and I'm going by what he reported. Anyway, check all the normal stuff, stretch, pigment saturation, speed, etc., but if you keep beating your head against a wall, might want to consider another device that offers other needle types and sizes or give the Nouveau #3 Point Liner a try. Last Edited on 14-Jul-2010 6:13 PM
KatALyst 319 posts Jul 15, 2010 6:49 AM	When stretching, don't push on their eyeball, use the brow bone around it, have a tissue (this keeps your stretch from slipping on the wet slick skin) and use your fingers to stretch the skin without pushing on the eyeball or getting any creases or wrinkles in the skin. You must have a nice taught stretch of skin to get the color in, it is flatter (better to get proper depth) and smooth (you will have even application) and MUCH easier to place exactly where you want your pigment to go. (In other words, if you are just drawing your line on loose skin, when they open their eyes and look at you, you might be surprised where you actually placed the pigment and I will be very surprised if it is straight because skin is organic and not very straight, hence the need for a taught, flat surface that has taken most of nature's quirks out of it...) Again, just my thoughts. And with M., why not try a rotary or coil? Really there are great little machines out there that just make PMU work, and they don't have to be fancy or super expensive. Don't forgot, tattooing color into the skin has been around for centuries, and it hasn't totally changed that much. We do not need fancy digital expensive machines to get great results. All you need is an efficient means of placing color into the dermis. Its much simpler than you think. (And hearing all these bugpin number such and such needle configurations, etc., that's more than enough for me to wrap my brain around, and it must make it that much harder for you when you are somewhat starting fresh...) Simple is good, efficient is good. I think I might purchase an Istar... ---------- ~Kat, CPCP~ SPCP Member & Certified Western KY www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com Last Edited on 15-Jul-2010 6:52 AM
Ms. M 353 posts Jul 15, 2010 9:46 AM	I did mean to comment on your leading sentence regarding the improbability of industry leaders giving their secrets away. There are literally hundreds/thousands of posts on this site that do exactaly the opposite of what the person you were consulting with indicated. Why did you lead with that information? The results of people asking for help and getting it on this site are quite clear. On the other hand, there are people, likely the person you were speaking with that take one class and that's it, done deal and look to others for basic, not necessarily problematic assistance and just literally take advantage of the availability of the people who contribute to this site. I just felt the need to comment on that. I don't know any other industry where the people who have grown up in it through hard knocks, classes, continuing education, and long-term experience are so willing to give to, in come cases, people they have never even met. I think your friend was being unnecessarily unfair.
BGTD 74 posts Jul 15, 2010 12:58 PM	I'm not sure I'm following with the digital thing? I never said I used a digital, I said at the very top I use a rotary. In any event, Kat and Ms.M thank you for the advice. Kat I'm trying to visualize your stretching description - and I have been pressing on the eyeball so I will back off that and will try using the brow bone instead as sort of an "anchor point" (if you will) like you describe. Yes Ms.M I agree and feel the same way.
Ms. M 354 posts Jul 15, 2010 5:31 PM	I';m so sorry, I read Nouveau rather than Neo Tat. I'm not an expert on that particular device although I do use it for lips. I'll leave advice for needles to others who are more acquainted with the appropriate responses.
Lizzy 1113 posts Jul 15, 2010 8:43 PM	BGTD, Now and again I have seen a few post deleted but most everything I see here shared about eyeliner, I have read in past posts. Years ago I went through and copy pasted and organized info from here and made a reference book. This board and all the great ladies here have helped me tremendously.They have been my anchor. Recently it hit me about eyeliner. Sometimes that is what it takes. You finally get the "ah ha" moments and it comes together. For me it was being afraid of hurting them and not "gettin' in there". Liza had a good cant for me. "Get in get out quick messin' about". That was me. Yep, getting that good stretch and it's not the same on all of them. I've tried so many different ways ,trying to mimic those I have seen or how it was explained to me. It starts to come naturally after awhile. So ditto on what all has been said here. ---------- Lizzy Elizabeth Rose http://www.CosmeticInk.net Last Edited on 16-Jul-2010 7:48 AM
BGTD 75 posts Jul 15, 2010 11:32 PM	Thanks Lizzy!
UHavMail 119 posts Jul 20, 2010 8:53 PM	*Shrinkage* When you complete the eyeliner -- it is lying FLAT. As it heals it FOLDS or CURLS in which is SHRINKAGE. So always a SCOCH or NUDGE more when applying. If they say NO then they will realize more is needed on return. Think of someone with a new surgical incision or trauma and you tell them, 'Wait, and you will see, when it HEALS it won't look as big.' All trauma, incisions, etc shrink upon healing. Marcia
sherrau 18 posts Jul 21, 2010 12:10 AM	BGTD I have had eyeliner look fine when the client leaves my shop and then have it be gone when they come back for the touch-up. Sometimes it just peeled off in a day or two. I am also using the Neo and a #5 or #8 round liner. I, like Lizzy, will back off my normal technique if the client is squirrely or whining. What did I do to calm the client? I used more anesthetic. I think too much anesthetic in the skin can cause the pigment to go where no pigment should go. Then, all your hard work is gone in a few days.
Jane Adler 1183 posts Jul 21, 2010 9:25 AM	Ms M..... I dig your comments. Lizzy got it. Any way you look at it we hurt people for a living. It is all in the balance. Get in and out. Keep them safe, have a great bed side mannor, skills and make it pretty. ---------- Jane Adler, CPCP Facial Art by Jane SofTap® Distributor Tattoos http://janeadler.blogspot.com/ http://www.janeadler.com
Lizzy 1114 posts Jul 21, 2010 7:51 PM	I like Janes's last comment "and make it pretty". :) ---------- Lizzy Elizabeth Rose http://www.CosmeticInk.net
BGTD 76 posts Jul 23, 2010 12:10 AM	Good, good stuff. Love to hear what the "pro's" have to say. I don't know much about anything but I do think this to be true about PMU: it takes time to get good at it. For most probably in the neighborhood of at least 100+ same type procedures before one really "begins" to develop any sort of consistent quality and style in their work. So many ways of accomplishing the same thing but we all must decide which method works best for each of us individually, and that just takes time, no way around it.
BGTD 80 posts Aug 30, 2010 9:13 PM	So it's been a good 8-10 eyeliner clients later and unfortunately it's still not clicking for me. Really sucks. Nearly all of my clients (except for the occasional 1-2 which are usually asian or african american) my eyeliners are literally flaking almost completely off. I'm seriously getting really weirded out about it. I've tried many many pigment manufacturers (SPCP and otherwise), I've switched from a digital to a rotary, I've tried larger needle groupings, heavier gauge, bugpins, etc. Color theory? Studied it. Stretching? Yep, check. I've tried running my machine at different speeds, I've tried different needle angles, slowed wayyy down, sped way up, you name it. I've literally tried taking a tight 3 and have just stuck it right into the skin at a 90 degree angle in the same spot from anywhere to 1 to 5 seconds. Nothing! WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?! I feel like a complete PMU loser but worst of all is that my clients are the ones having to suffer. Maybe I'm going to deep? Not deep enough enough? I don't know. I mean sheezus it's a frickin eyelid it's only about 3/4 of a mm deep so depth shouldn't be THAT big a factor, yeah? Obviously I'm a little frustrated. Obviously I have much to learn. I have hope because I know that there are people here who have been through the same frustrations and have figured it out eventually. Oy.
Stylishus 32 posts Aug 31, 2010 1:50 PM	BGTD I know how you feel!!! I was really stressing about my liners too a while back. I went back to using a 3 RL, and I really take my time as far as dwelling in one area long enough to get the pigment in there. With the 3 RL it takes a looong time to really get a nice thick liner, but I can tell the difference of saturation on the perfection visit. I have had 2 clients tell me that after their eye exams, both of their doctors told them that they thought my liners were the best they've seen under the microscope...I gotta tell you, that made my day. So, I guess my technique, right or wrong is working. Again I just go pretty slowly, making sure that the pigment is being deposited well. That being said, early on I was very scared and frustrated about Liner too. Don't give up!
KatALyst 327 posts Aug 31, 2010 4:06 PM	Eric, Sounds like its a depth problem. Find out when the outer layer of the eyeliner is flaking off. The longer the bright pigment lasts, the deeper it is. For example: If eyeliner comes off in two days... you are not deep enough, you have not reached the dermis and all your color will shed off. If your outer bright layer of color sheds off after 6+ days, a week, etc. (I've even had eyebrows that were still on the woman after two weeks, that really surprised me) then that means you are reaching a better depth. Please note that for lips, they will heal faster. They should still not come off in a day or two though, more like 4+ days for proper placement. When I am working, if I feel like the skin is sort of 'resisting me', its a good feel for a good depth. Your machine set up will also help with depth. Change of pigments, etc. I don't think is the problem here. As for all your needle configs, my eyes glazed over. I'm simple. 7 or 8 round. That's all I personally use on lips and eyes ever. I see you've tried a rotary down from digital. I have gotten FABULOUS results with both coil and rotary (never had the money or training for digital and have never missed it) so its not always the more expensive equipment that gets the good results. The reality is that you are where EVERY NEW technician has ever been. And consider it a blessing to start out conservative until you get used to it. For instance, if you go TOO DEEP especially in the inside and outside corners, or stay TOO LONG TOO DEEP on one spot, you can get PIGMENT MIGRATION that is a permanent crappy sloppy smeary problem. You are much better off starting out lighter and going a little more each time. When I started, I used to do just enough eyeliner to look nice. When they came back, I realize the majority of it was GONE. I learned to add just a bit more than they wanted and told them to expect that it would be more than they wanted in order to get it to heal with enough color, although I let the client tell me when it is 'too much'. If I give them the mirror and they 'love how it looks, its perfect!' then we know between swelling and shedding that it will be a whole lot less, and then I tell the client and sometimes they tell me "add one more line" and sometimes they say "let's stop here and see how it does". But basically if they leave with the eyeliner they want, it will fade and thin down by about 1/3 or 1/2. This is an incredibly difficult business. I am very fortunate I had incredible 72 hours of strictly hands-on procedure training and then 2 years of an apprenticeship or I surely would have thrown up my hands in the air too. You are finding out what many newbies do, that PMU is a serious challenge that can be rewarding with a lot of work and dilligence and experience but is not what some would call 'easy money'. I know you will stick it out, I can tell how much you care for your clients, which to me is the #1 most important quality for a tech. Just make sure when you stretch the eyeliner to 'check' your pigment placement, that there is no lightness or skin showing through it, etc. that the color is really 'in there' and that you add a little more than the end result is. I spend at least 30 min on EACH EYE LID and that is more than most (includes some numbing time too tho) but I feel like it takes a good few passes to really get the color in there (although some disagree with my approach, and that is merely my technique, I am not suggesting that for everyone) so if you are just doing one or two passes, that may not be enough to get enough color to show up. It is most definitely a learning curve. You have a lot of dedication and along with client care and artistic ability, the physical hands-on techniques just take time and experience to master and we always keep learning. ---------- ~Kat, CPCP~ SPCP Member & Certified Western KY www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
Ms. M 358 posts Sep 01, 2010 6:14 PM	I suggest that if you have not seen improvement from the advice on this ms is to go take a class from Teryn Darling in Las Vegas. Teryn and I put together a great eyeliner class that we give on a group basis. Teryn gives the class independently as well. She's a permanent cosmetic technician as well as doing tribal body art work and her technique has resoloved a lot of the issues you speak of for many who have taken the class.
Ms. M 359 posts Sep 01, 2010 6:16 PM	Or go to any SPCP trainer for that matter. My point is that I think it is class time. The stress of worrying about every eyeliner you do and how it will come out can be discouaging. Sometimes these issues need a trainer watching and guiding you along and watching for issues that would preclude a good outcome. I think it would benefit you to take this a step further and train with someone you trust.
BGTD 81 posts Sep 02, 2010 1:45 PM	Kat ~ thanks for the helpful comments. Ms. M ~ I contacted Teryn based on your suggestion. Hopefully I'll be able to arrange something with her shortly. Thanks again!
Ms. M 363 posts Sep 02, 2010 3:57 PM	I think this will bring you some relief.
stylist 218 posts Sep 03, 2010 9:13 PM	Ms.M Spot On ...You will never go wrong with one on one with Teryn ....I am going on 6 years in the business and I would have probably given up if it had not been for Teryn ...
Ms. M 364 posts Sep 04, 2010 9:40 AM	Well since I was Teryn's original trainer and we have worked together since that time, I'll crow a little about her. She's a great trainer and one of the best technicians I know. I'm very proud of her and her contribution to the industry. Last Edited on 4-Sep-2010 9:40 AM
sonyap 30 posts Sep 08, 2010 7:19 PM	Please give me Teryn's email address, looks like I may have to see her about some eyeliner issues. Tks.
Ms. M 368 posts Sep 08, 2010 9:25 PM	info@girlzink.com
sonyap 31 posts Sep 09, 2010 9:59 AM	Ms.M, thanks for the info.

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