|
Message Board>
Permanent Makeup
Brow correction
Brandy
654 posts
Jun 23, 2009
6:24 PM
|
Here is a brow correction that walked in today.
Her brows were done about ten years ago. She is asking me to lighten the color. As much as I want to help her, I can't. She has considerable scarring that would still show even if I could lighten them to a more pleasing color. She has an actual indentation in her skin. And if someone were to ask her where she had them done, she would tell them I did them as I would have been the last to work on them. I showed her how to apply concealer and use a brow pencil in a lighter shade instead and she was very happy that someone took the time to show her another option.
My heart goes out to these people that have been tattooed by heavy handed idiots that want their work to last. Well last it did!
Last Edited on 23-Jun-2009 6:31 PM
|
Maggie
1709 posts
Jun 23, 2009
8:31 PM
|
Sadly, lately, this is about half of what comes in my door. I hope some day people will wake up and understand and accept the need for more training.
Last Edited on 23-Jun-2009 8:37 PM
|
poshlash
743 posts
Sep 20, 2009
2:58 PM
|
As a brand spankin' new nubie, I would love to see some pics of PMU gone wrong and what you all did to fix or advise the clients...
Posh
----------
www.poshradiance.com
|
ILOVEPM
109 posts
Oct 09, 2009
5:27 PM
|
hi brandy....if i was you i would go and do the brows in two procedures....fist i would go in with the dry needles in that section of the brows....act like you're doing her brows....but just don't put pigment on the needles...let them heal 5-6 weeks and then do the regular touch-up,,,the dry needles will help her with her skin indentation and the scarring...and i know that maybe some people on this board won't approve the dry needle technique....i done it many times...and trust me it works for scars, and acne...and so many things.... make sure that you give her a form to fill out and let her know that you can't guarantee the job....and if she's fine with that go with the procedure or else tell her that maybe you're no the right pm artist for her....is not worth it getting sued for a few hundreth dollars....
good luck brandy..
|
DorrieAnn
26 posts
Oct 10, 2009
6:42 AM
|
Brandy, I think it was a good call and you should go with your first instinct. I hope I'm not in for a good bashing by saying this, however I completely disagree with "ILOVEPM", in fact I am not a fan of PMU artists practicing dry needling at all.
"fist i would go in with the dry needles in that section of the brows....act like you're doing her brows....but just don't put pigment on the needles"
I would NOT experiment n someone's face with this procedure. You need a SUBSTANTIAL amount of training and really it needs to be left in the medical realm, not ours. I think MCA really gets PMU artists in alot of trouble and only draws unecessary attention to our industry. We are permanent makeup artists. We tattoo pigment into peoples skin to enhance their beauty, camo scars, etc...That is what we are trained to do. Just because we work with needles, it doesn't qualify us to use our needles in any other capacity. I use scissors to cut my coupons on Sunday morning...Does that mean I should be cutting peoples hair??? Maybe a poor example, but you get what I'm saying. I'm not trying to bash ILOVEPM if she's been properly trained to perform MCA, I just don't think it's wise to suggest that someone, who presumably has not had this training take on such a task. Again, I understand why you made the suggestion, but people pop on and off this board like the wind and the last thing our industry needs is someone reading that they can dry needle a clients skin, being sued for doing dodgey work and BANG goes PMU. Leave the medical stuff to the docs.
|
KatALyst
170 posts
Oct 10, 2009
12:45 PM
|
I have been seeing a lot of eyebrows that look like this. One I did lately had a similar indentation. I told the client that I suspected that there could have been possible scarring, because of the change in skintone. For instance, it was 'shiney', unlike the matte of the healthy skin. In my case, I was not lightening her eyebrows. Thankfully they had faded to almost next to nothing, so in my case, I went ahead and did a featherstroke eyebrow in a nice taupe blonde and saw her back for the touch up about 6+ weeks later. It had healed VERY well, I just slightly went over a little bit again of the tippy tops of the feather strokes that had lightened, more than likely, due to the scarred-nature of the possible scarred-looking skin. I do want to say that the patient thanked me more times than I could count for how happy she was. But again, I wasn't lightening what she had, i was applying new. (maybe one of these days i'll post her faded/scarred before and her healed-in after photo.)
I want to say that I have never seen scarring with the featherstroke technique. Now, I realize that some have been doing this a whole lot longer than I have, so some might have. But generally, I see this deep indentation and almost 'outline' when someone does a solid fill brow. (note to those who like solid fills: I'm not saying that you will ALWAYS scar a person. If you know what you're doing, you don't scar people. Solid fills are not my preference. Even if someone wants a solid look, I still apply the technique the same way as I do the featherstroke, just really close together. I never outline a border and then fill it in. If they want solid, they get plenty of solid color without the harshness of a outlined border and all the trauma that goes into filling in the entire brow vs. small diagonal strokes. If I'm wrong about this, that's ok. I'll go ahead and be wrong. I just really like some form of featherstroking, even if it is close together to simulate a less broken-up look....)
So what I'm saying is, from my opinion, too many techs doing solid brows from back in the day are scarring people and I have never seen anyone get scarred eyebrows from the feather stroking technique.
One odd case- have you ever had that sister that wanted you to work and rework and rework and rework her eyebrows? Because I have. (under much duress, mind you, had she been a regular client, I would have said enough is enough.) In any case, she never scarred at all. As far as I know, her eyebrows have been done at least 5 separate times (not just touch up, completely applied) about 3 yrs and she has never scarred. Each time it was using the featherstroke technique, and the last time I did them she wanted them filled in solidly so I used a 5 round needle and it totally filled in all the gaps, while I could still apply it with my diagonal but closer together featherstrokes.
Sorry of that was long. I just have seen a bunch of these lately. And they seem to be coming from the same place...grrr... ok I'm done.
(Feather-stroke Happy Kat)
----------
~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
|
frostellie
373 posts
Oct 10, 2009
2:37 PM
|
As our industry becomes larger, the boomers continue to lose their brows, and some trainers keep advertising it as a way to make big money, it will only continue to get worse. Thank goodness we have the SCPC to help regulate and set standards. I hope all states will get on board sooner than later.
|
Maggie
1826 posts
Oct 10, 2009
3:42 PM
|
Over all, it is not a technique, per se, that causes scarring. And it is not just techniques from "back in the day" that causes scarring. The problem we are seeing happens because technician are not being trained adequately. They do not know how to choose colors, they can't work with their equipment well, so they only figure they should DRILL in the pigment to make it stay. This happens with every device on the market and every pigment brand. It won't go away until there is tighter controls in training.
|
Jane Adler
1076 posts
Oct 10, 2009
4:05 PM
|
Not only training but natural skill and respect for the skin. Same as traditional tattooing some belive (will not listen) that hard is quicker and better. When in fact, it is the opposite. Gentle touch. Also happens a lot with peeps using tattooing as a removal with harsh chemicals. All about skill and sound skin ethics, education. Can happen with anything.
The key is not being harsh or trying to be a speed demon. Color needs to be layered not Pounded in or out.
Not talking to anyone person, but in general. Like Maggie said and more. Often skill and ethics cannot be taught. Yes, better and longer hands on training.
----------
Jane Adler, CPCP
Facial Art by Jane
SofTap® Distributor
BBP Instructor
http://www.janeadler.com
|
Ms. M
303 posts
Oct 10, 2009
6:55 PM
|
I'm with Brandy on this one. Unfortuntely I've tried to help people in a similiar situation and although I could make them better, once I started the process it never was good enough. Just couldn't get past the old work. People expect too much once they are working with a professional. They seem to think you can make it as if "it never happened." In some cases yes, in case of an indented scared poorly conducted eyebrow procedure, I would doubt it.
|
LiZa
3505 posts
Oct 11, 2009
5:50 PM
|
I'm not a fan of dry needling. I understand its concept, but i do feel it is out of our scope. if we are not putting color IN the skin, I feel for the most part we need not to be doing it.
The doctors and tattoo artists in my area have much respect for me because i stay in my 'realm'. I focus on doing good work, putting the correct color in the correct design and stay away from areas such as this case. This is something I would not touch. Much of my success has come as the result of knowing when to say no.
I'm just sayin'
----------
Liza Sims CPCP
Permanent Makeup MythBuster Blog
Cosmetic Tattoo Home
LI Pigments Online Store
Citius, Altius, Fortius!
|
frostellie
375 posts
Oct 12, 2009
12:13 AM
|
I so agree with Liza. Dry needling is out of our scope. I don't know anyone that does training in this area though I have heard of it. It is not in the scope of my skills. It takes a long time to be good at PM. If dry needling works (which I think it probably does,) it takes lots of good training and experience, but it is not PM.
|
KatALyst
174 posts
Oct 12, 2009
7:41 AM
|
Question about the needling. If the person has already been scarred due to PMU application, how is that working the skin again is going to undo what was already done with the similar application?
ie: Needles into skin = scarring
Needles into skin = undo the scarring
?
Just was wondering. I always thought the point of dry needling was to 'damage' the skin to prompt it to make its own collagen, and some people use it to break up real deep grooves in wrinkles, etc. for this reason. The person I apprenticed with had done this for years. But I've never seen it done to work on a scar, unless to recolor the scar...
----------
~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
|
|
|
|
