scouser1
127 posts
Jun 06, 2009
9:48 AM
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How are you techs that took on the Neo-tat doing overall? I'm just curious on feedback to see if you've mastered the machine yet. I've found that even tho' the diamond tips are supposed to work well - they don't work well for me with this machine. Seems like the needle has no "support" on the return stroke - in other words, you can't really go back & forth in one movement, because you get some skin snagging (no matter what the speed setting, angle of needle etc), and the best round tip size that fits the needle correctly where you don't have this issue is the
1-3 round with the #8 5 needle - if you jump to a #12 5 needle, then the hole is too tight for the needle, and won't allow the needle through. So, if you go to the next size 5-7 round, then the hole is too "roomy" for the 5 needle and the pigment has a harder time depositing.
Any thoughts anyone?
Last Edited on 6-Jun-2009 9:50 AM
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frostellie
338 posts
Jun 07, 2009
10:23 PM
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I don't generally use a "return" stroke, but I know what you mean. I like the diamond tips, but I don't like too much room for the needle. Too little is a problem too because the needle can hit on the tube and inhibit the machine strokes. Maybe you can try only going in one direction in the tube.
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KatALyst
101 posts
Jun 10, 2009
8:36 PM
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Is a 'return stroke' when you move your needle back and forth (I call it the zipper?) Because the last one to do that on me, it was HORRIBLE, even when I was numb, like a shock to my system each time, and not to mention more swelling that I had encountered before, and not very much color as I would like either. I think starting from point A to B with a solid stretch and a solid pass, wipe and then back to A proceed to B is a lot calmer, less traumatic on the skin (another words, you're not doubling back and forth over the same treated area.) and if you proceed slowly and carefully, the machine does all the work, I think. So yeah, if that is what that is, I don't do return strokes or zippers either....
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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scouser1
128 posts
Jun 11, 2009
4:31 PM
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No, to explain this more clearly - if you go half way across the top of the lid (I usually start with the left eye - everyone has their own preference - and starting at say the outer corner, I usually go half way in, and then find it MUCH EASIER to have the client slightly move their head to one side, then I start from the inside corner going toward the center,(what I call the return stroke), meeting the line in the center. Then repeat. I find it very difficult whether painting, drawing, or teaching everyday makeup to create one straight line from beginning to end without a hitch. This is a basic art principle, in that it's much more difficult to create one long smooth line in one stroke, than it is to create two smaller ones. (unless you're using a ruler - ha ha). I've found this makes doing eyeliner infinitely easier, and I can get nice straight lines. Additional trauma? Not that I've experienced. However, everyone has their own particular techniques as to what works for them. But my question has more to do with how everyone's coming along with the NeoTat for those that just recently purchased it.
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OKTat2Makeup
400 posts
Jun 15, 2009
8:24 PM
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Working with Neo for about a year. Love it! Was a little challenging to switch from Infinity, but practice, practice, practice.
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KatALyst
109 posts
Jun 16, 2009
9:33 AM
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Scouser, ok different things then. Although you and I have different styles. I was trained to start with the eye furthest and work from the outside corner towards the nose. My client will always know where I'm starting and that when I get towards the inside towards the nose, I will stop, wipe, check, and they get a little breather. In the case of working on her left eye, my needle never goes the other direction - towards the ear. Its always at an angle headed toward the nose. Now sometimes I want to make sure I get a section really well when I've got a super stretch on them, but I will pick my needle back up and then start at the same spot and work my way in the same direction back towards the nose. That way I don't have back-n-forth back-n-forth which I was describing above to me felt like a zipper. (Twice the trauma, whereas what you describe sounds like you're going from outside corner to middle, then inside corner to middle, and not zipping back and forth.)
Anyway my line gets thicker and thicker and yes I am a perfectionist so I can just about get a pretty straight line following the lashes going from point A to B in one go, but as you point out, everyone uses different ways to accomplish the same thing, really good PMU. Thats where the art comes in with the science, I suppose.
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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MzLips
43 posts
Jun 17, 2009
8:04 PM
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In reference to the "skin snagging" comment: I use the NeoTat machine almost exclusively now. When I first started using the neo, I found that the "snagging" you mentioned was more likely to occur when either the needle was out too far and / or the stretch needed to be adjusted.
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scouser1
133 posts
Jun 18, 2009
6:38 PM
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Thanks each of you for your helpful input. I've also being emailing with Ray and he's given me a couple of great tips about the set-up of the machine. Actually very basic things I wish I'd been shown in the class I took on the Neo! I didn't know the space that's at the end of the loop should face left, thus making the needles that are soldered onto the bar sit "underneath" the bar, closer to the tube tip. In case others are still struggling w/the Neo this may help you too! Thanks again each of you.
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Brandy
646 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:32 PM
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Hi Scouser, please clarify. Do you mean the open end of the needle loop should face to the left? When I put my needle on the needle post, the open end of the loop for liners is always facing to the right. For shaders it's to the left. This is with the machine pointing away from me. But I think you have it right if the needle is sitting under the needle bar when it's loaded.
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Maggie
1707 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:51 PM
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Brandy, I agree - the needle grouping is under the bar or at the back of the tube in all cases. It is my very strong opinion that no one should be relying on the loop opening to determine how to sit the needle bar onto the machine. Quite often, depending on what kind of needle grouping you are using, and the company making them, the needle grouping will be soldered onto the other side, many times on purpose with specialty needles just to easily tell them apart.
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Brandy
648 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:52 PM
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Wondering who's teaching classes on the Neo Tat and not showing how to load the needles. I can't imagine you guys working with needle upside down. You must've been pulling your hair out wondering why it wasn't working.
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Brandy
649 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:56 PM
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Maggie, I thought that was pretty standard, liners to the right, shaders to the left. We've been dealing with the same needle manufacturer for a decade so I assumed it was the same for all.
So I assumed wrong. Thank you Mags for bringing that to my attention. See, never to old to learn ha ha.
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scouser1
135 posts
Jun 18, 2009
9:29 PM
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Well, apparently this is the correct way to load the Neo-Tat machine according to Ray who manufactured it. He said that the open end of the loop (if you're looking at the front of the machine as though it were a gun and you were going to shoot yourself - which I might end up doing if I don't get the hang of this thing) should be to the left so that the needles that are soldered on the the bar are sitting underneath the bar and closest to the tube tip. I hope this clarifies that for you.
I'm sure there are exceptions as Maggie mentions, but at least for "most" situations, according to Ray, this seems to be the standard way to load the Neo.
The class was quite expensive, and by an SPCP trainer, but these details were never mentioned. (I'm not the only one that took the class and has been having the same problems. Fortunately I've shared Ray's information, so hopefully we'll be able to do better now with the new knowledge. Oh, lessons learned, but I'll be a little more careful myself about choosing a trainer next time I take a class.
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scouser1
136 posts
Jun 18, 2009
9:38 PM
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Oh, Brandy just made a point about it being standard -liners to the right shaders to the left. Now, Ray never mentioned about shaders - since this is a new machine to me (I've always used pens and not a coil), I'm unfamiliar with these details - so, in other words, when I use the shader Neo-Tat, then the needle loop opening would be on the right side so then the needles are on the "upside" of the needle bar?
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scouser1
137 posts
Jun 18, 2009
9:40 PM
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sorry - meant to add in my question - the needle loop opening would be on the right side "if you're pointing the machine at yourself", not away from you (for the shader).
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Brandy
650 posts
Jun 18, 2009
9:52 PM
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Scouser, do what Maggie said and don't rely on looking at the opening on the loop. Apparently manufacturers do the loops differently. Just make sure the needles are always sitting on the underside of the bar toward the back or bottom of the tube.
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Maggie
1708 posts
Jun 19, 2009
4:42 AM
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Brandy, you are right...pretty much the standard but I have been caught on this more than once with a needle sitting stupid in my tube so taking a look at it I realized it was not how I expected it to be. You would easily catch that because you know how it is supposed to look when loaded but inexperienced people will not and run their shaders with their needle groupings floating in the middle of their tubes, for example.
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scouser1
138 posts
Jun 19, 2009
7:29 AM
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I think that probably the word is not "inexperienced" since I am not inexperienced - but rather "poorly trained". If a person is taught how to load a new machine correctly, there should be no confusion from then on. I was not. So it's not inexperience per se, but lack of proper training. Hopefully Brandy received proper training with this machine. And if you have been used to using the coil machine, as opposed to the pens, then learning to load the needles on the Neo-Tat would be a snap. Not so for someone that hasn't used this "type" of machine before. So good training is everything!
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scouser1
139 posts
Jun 19, 2009
7:34 AM
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Thank you Brandy - it's just good to know now how these needles are supposed to sit. Also, Maggie mentioned about shaders - are you talking of the Neo Shader machine? And would there be any difference in the way the needles should be loaded with the shader and the liner machine? I would assume shader needles and liner needles would be loaded the same, no?
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Brandy
651 posts
Jun 19, 2009
8:59 AM
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Scouser, don't flatter yourself ha ha. These comments are not directed at you specifically. We are talking in general.
When you have been poorly trained then you do not have the experience to work correctly. Therefore you are inexperienced in a certain aspect This does not mean that you do not know how to tattoo.
For everyone using needles on a bar, I think the best way to determine correct loading would be to lay your needle down on a dental bib and look at the needle grouping. The needles should be sitting underneath the bar and this is the way to load it into the machine.
This is the same for liners and shaders. The needles should always be closest to the bottom of the tube when you are sliding them into the tube.
Last Edited on 19-Jun-2009 9:03 AM
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scouser1
140 posts
Jun 19, 2009
1:00 PM
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Thank you Brandy for the information. Appreciate it. Comprehensively, I have been very well trained, and have used the pens very successfully over the years. Just poor training on the Neo-Tat unfortunately. Thanks again!
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Deborah Hern
231 posts
Jun 22, 2009
10:23 PM
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Thanks ladies I learned a lot here about my neo which I love.....I would love a photo of a proper need mount position. I think I'm understanding, but a photo would be great. Thanks Deborah
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KatALyst
115 posts
Jun 23, 2009
3:22 PM
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Hmm. Whole lot of talk. The way I always loaded coils, as mentioned I think, was that the needles laid on the bottom of the tube with the soldered 'bump' part up, and the loop at the end fit over the rubber holder, with a rubber band over the top to keep it from bouncing around too much.
Is that the way it is for the neo? In any case, there is a lot less confusion with some of the other methods. Hey do the neos have screws in them too like the coils did? Adjusting those things drove me nuts...one day it would be fine, the next, it wouldn't make contact...
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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Deborah Hern
232 posts
Jun 23, 2009
5:07 PM
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no adjustments, I think that is what make them so attractive.
I really love my lttle neo ,but it really had a learning curve. I really appreicate any info from other people.
I think I love best the great varity of needle configurations...makes it so easy to do specific work! Deborah
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scouser1
141 posts
Jun 23, 2009
6:04 PM
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Well, I have to say, since I learned about the needle loading, my procedures have been a whole lot better. Also, Ray and also Liza told me when you do lips, to put a really "severe" angle to your machine - almost "flat". I tried that this week, and yes indeed, it went a whole lot better. I think my problem was the angle, I had been using the Neo like a pen as far as angle, i.e. straight or only a very slight angle, but it seems that this machine does so much better on an angle. Yes, indeed it's a big learning curve with this machine, but I believe in the end it will be so worth it.
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Brandy
652 posts
Jun 23, 2009
6:07 PM
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This is the way the needle should slide into the tube and the way it should be sitting when tattooing. You can see the bar is on top and the needles are on the bottom. I had more really good pictures but that darn photo bucket has gotten so slow and complicated I just don't have the patience, sorry.
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Brandy
653 posts
Jun 23, 2009
6:11 PM
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Here it is sitting in the tube. The glint of silver at the top of the tubes oval opening is the needle bar and the needles are resting at the bottom.
Last Edited on 23-Jun-2009 6:14 PM
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KatALyst
116 posts
Jun 23, 2009
7:39 PM
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I was trained to have at least a 45 degree angle, so that the needle doesn't 'catch'. It should flow better. Both coil and rotary seem to have that. Can't speak for softap (no experience there.)
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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scouser1
142 posts
Jun 23, 2009
8:05 PM
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Brandy - A big THANK YOU for the pictures - they're so clear and self-explanatory. Yes, NOW I know. Just that one small, but important detail means so much. And Kat - yes, you're right, I tried going very flat, and I did get a little catching of the skin, so I changed it to about 38degrees and that seemed to work fine. (of course, we'll see how the lips look in 5-6 weeks - I hope I'm not saying "what did I do wrong!"). Thanks for the info.
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Deborah Hern
233 posts
Jun 24, 2009
7:16 AM
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brandy, what a nice person your to give us photos...extra mile and all...thanks so much. Deborah
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Brandy
655 posts
Jun 24, 2009
8:04 PM
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I sure hope the person Scouser trained under with the Neo Tat is loading her needles in the right way:)
It's mind boggling to me that she does not explain this in her class. And expensive yet!
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KatALyst
117 posts
Jun 24, 2009
8:11 PM
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Brandy, I agree. Breaking down and loading up machines should be fundamental. I put it ahead of operating a procedure, myself...Hopefully she will add that or do more hands-on in the future...
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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Brandy
656 posts
Jun 25, 2009
8:39 AM
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The term "breaking down" a machine is different than taking the needle out and replacing it with a new one and adjusting the rubber bands. Breaking down means replacing crucial parts like contact screws, capacitors, springs, and coils and fine tuning. This, unfortunately, is usually not included in fundamental training. Most people in PMU are shown to load and go in whatever method they choose and very little is explained about the running and maintenance of the machines.
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Deborah Hern
234 posts
Jun 25, 2009
4:13 PM
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well back in the days of dirt, when I trained there was sooooo much left out period.
Don't you think most people are trained on the little pens?
I often think you people who move from body art to pm are light years ahead of the rest of us on many levels.
Thanks goodness we are not potted plants...we can learn to do better! Deborah
Last Edited on 25-Jun-2009 4:14 PM
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Brandy
657 posts
Jun 25, 2009
5:48 PM
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Yeah, Deborah you're right. Most people are trained on the little pens because the trainers are more comfortable with a load and go machine. As stated on many threads here, people cannot be bothered to work with a machine that needs any kind of adjustment.
It's like learning to cook "Coq au Vin" versus going out for "KFC". (I don't know where the heck that came from, maybe I'm hungry :)
Last Edited on 25-Jun-2009 5:49 PM
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scouser1
145 posts
Jun 26, 2009
6:07 PM
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Brandy makes a good point about the ease of a "load and go" pen, vs. adjustments on a coil or Neo. The one thing of course about the pens is that they just feel more comfortable and less clumsy than the heavier coils or Neo, but I believe, once mastered, the heavier machines are a lot more versatile.
Today, I had a couple of brow clients, and by the end of the appts. I was ready to throw in the towel. The left side of the face - be it brows, eyes, lips, go fine, but when I switch to the right side, I simply cannot use the same angle I use on the left. When I adjust the angle, then I don't get any pigment deposit. When I use the pen, doesn't matter what angle I work with, the pigment goes into the skin and the procedure and results are great. Not so with the Neo, not yet anyway.
I suppose I need another class, but I'm really not wanting to spend almost another $2,000 for something I should have been able to learn the first time. I figure I will just keep practicing and trying different things, and hopefully things will click.
I do want to thank LiZa, and Ray Webb for giving me good advice on how to install the needles correctly and which angles work best for which procedures. That was so very helpful and has definitely improved my work thus far, now it just needs more experience with the machine.
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Rozan
697 posts
Jun 26, 2009
7:38 PM
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I am trying to hold my tongue here but I just can’t.
Nora you stated:
I suppose I need another class, but I'm really not wanting to spend almost another $2,000 for something I should have been able to learn the first time.
I really don’t want to promote Kate and myself, so that’s why I’m struggling with the reply on this thread….
Both our classes (Kate’s and Mine) total less than $800, so I don’t know where you got your figure, but I just had to put that out there.
I thought at one point you loved your Neo training???
These things should have been covered, I’m sorry they weren’t. Not trying to PUSH me or the upcoming class here, but I don’t want people that are reading this to think that a Neo class cost $2,000 - I just needed to clarify that point.
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Rose Ann Cloud, CPCP
Permanent Cosmetics By Rozan
www.RozanCloud.com
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sonyap
9 posts
Jun 26, 2009
9:56 PM
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Hello, Scoucer1, you are the not the only one having the problem with the right side, I was doing the same thing, it looks like it is really the angle thing here, I starting doing the right side of the face standing up, of course not good for my back, but that is the only way, I am have luck with the right eye/brow. Thanks again for the info on needle grouping, I will now order the needles.
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Maggie
1710 posts
Jun 27, 2009
4:51 AM
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Has anyone considered that maybe the trainer is not at fault here? Seriously. Karla has brought this up many times. This was not a fundamental class, but even in fundamental classes a lot of things get said and go unnoticed by the student and/or forgotten. It is also hard to teach advanced training to those who have had only limited fundamental class time.
It is a shame one sings their instructor's praises one moment and then completely bashes them another. Problems with the Neo Tat can be caused by something as simple as forgetting to lock in the needle bar. It is a sophisticated machine, in my opinion, and there is a learning curve but it is not rocket science. If one can use it successfully in class, this is easy enough to carry out in practice if the same techniques and principles are applied.
Regarding the pen machines - I have not seen all of them so I cannot make judgment calls here but I can tell you that many of them contaminate so I would only back those sold by SPCP suppliers, and over all they were designed for eyebrows and eyeliner and maybe lip liner and that is it; so they fit right into a fundamental program where there are no full lips or breast work and the price is right for the beginner.
The problem is, many never go back for further training and struggle with procedures that require different elements of practice, essentially stumbling through self-taught trial and error.
Many are training with the digitals and NeoTats now. I also think the hand tools have their fair share of the marketplace too. I am not dismissing the pen machines - I think they do fabulous work for the procedures they were designed for. I just don't think they are consistently used in beginner training as much as they used to be.
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scouser1
146 posts
Jun 27, 2009
7:08 AM
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I didn't know whether or not I was carrying out the procedures in class successfully or not - I was never critiqued as far as what I did, except that she thought I did good work. I mentioned a few times certain "problems" that seemed to occur, but they weren't addressed. She wasn't really attentive to the actual work being performed.
I am not bashing anyone here - I'm just pointing out the facts - I spent almost $2,000 and received very limited training, and it's only now that I realize she wasn't very familiar or expereinced with the Neo. Prior to taking the class I asked her if she'd gotten a lot of expereince with the Neo and she said yes.
I made a nice mention of the class and the trainer because she asked me to because numbers were down for her and she needed more business, and thought it would help. I was happy to do it because she's basically a nice person, and I enjoyed the overall experience of the class itself, and I wanted to do that. But, after my post-experience with the Neo-Tat, I realized just how little had been covered.
Needle bar is always locked when I do procedures by the way. I know Sonyap is not the only one with similar issues with the Neo. This is just a big learning curve, and as I say, I'm sure it will "click" at some point.
Rozan - your class is VERY reasonable, and totally inline for two good instructors to give their time.
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Brandy
658 posts
Jun 27, 2009
10:48 AM
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I agree that students can miss important aspects of their training, especially if they are the "chatty Cathy" types or are constantly text messaging and checking their cells. Happens all the time!
The thing I find helpful for me when I am teaching classes is to provide training manuals and handouts on the particular subjects that are being taught. That way I cover my butt if a student were to come back and say that wasn't covered in your class. NOT!
Students pay alot for their training and I teach the way I would want to be taught. Nothing left unanswered.
There are alot of students that thought they received great training until they got home and started working on their own. Maggie's statement always comes to mind "you don't even know what you don't know".
And I want to add that Rozan and Kates class is extremely reasonable for two instructors of their calibre.
Last Edited on 27-Jun-2009 10:50 AM
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scouser1
147 posts
Jun 27, 2009
11:36 AM
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I can't imagine people taking a very important class and taking their cell phones in with them to answer/check messages. Amazing! I guess it's the age we live in. I'm not a chatty-cathy type - when it comes to learning, I'm all ears! I agree about written content - good idea - and that's exactly right "you don't know what you don't know" - including asking questions about what you don't know.
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KatALyst
119 posts
Jun 28, 2009
5:37 PM
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I only want to add to a few of the posts (some of you know this already, so you don't have to reply) that I was originally trained on a traditional tattoo coil machine and chose to swap to a rotary pen after I had the opportunity. I don't think it completely goes without saying that if you train in PMU first (or only, as in my case) that you will automatically be trained on a pen. Someone made the comment that the body artists were 'light years ahead' of those trained in PMU, which I assume is because they weren't trained how to handle a coil? (If I am wrong you can tell me so.)
Anyway, just wanted to point out that not all PMU are left light years behind the body artists out there using coils. It's what I was trained with and used for several years before changing over, just do to the light, quiet and less-maintenance of the machine vs. coil. Personal preference only. (Not to mention, I do work in a spa, and they funny enough are kind of 'anti-tattoo parlor', although I have emphasized that I DO do facial tattooing, I just think they wouldn't be happy to see a regular tattoo machine in their spa anyway, not that it is there prerogative which methodology I chose...)
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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Brandy
659 posts
Jun 28, 2009
7:44 PM
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Oh for Petes sake, Kat, plastic surgeons use coil machines in the hospital. If you excel at what you do and bring in business, then the spa where their poop comes out saran wrapped, won't mind what the hell you use.
Anti tattoo parlor, give me a break, they ARE light years behind us. 25% of the American population is tattooed. That's one out of every four of the spa's customers. Do you not have a room of your own where the door is closed? And if they are that ignorant they wouldn't even know what a tattoo machine looked like, anyway!
Last Edited on 28-Jun-2009 7:45 PM
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KatALyst
120 posts
Jun 28, 2009
8:53 PM
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Brandy - First of all, don't jump on me, i'm just relating. In any case, my spa is very concerned not to come across medical or tattoo in any way. Despite it's commonality, there is still a lot of stigma I guess. And yes they do know what it is, and they like to tell their clients that we don't use the same machines tattoo people use. Them not me, so keep that in mind before you type another excited response.
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
Last Edited on 28-Jun-2009 8:54 PM
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Jane Adler
1026 posts
Jun 28, 2009
9:03 PM
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A needle is a needle in any package. A needle to skin in any form is a tattoo, even if in a spa. That stigma erks me.
I guess I need to add. Needle + Skin + Color = tattoo
Meaning it does not wash off.
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Jane Adler, CPCP
Facial Art by Jane
SofTap® Distributor
http://www.janeadler.com
Last Edited on 29-Jun-2009 9:33 AM
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scouser1
148 posts
Jun 28, 2009
9:28 PM
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Ignorance plus snobbery is what this is about. They don't understand the art and/or the profession at all, obviously. Ridiculous - yes, to a degree Jane is right - but a needle giving Botox per se, is never considered like a needle applying color. Go figure!!
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Brandy
660 posts
Jun 28, 2009
10:10 PM
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Okay, I get it, "tattoo people" are beneath working in your spa. Glad I don't live where you do.
Last Edited on 28-Jun-2009 10:12 PM
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Deborah Hern
235 posts
Jun 30, 2009
1:18 PM
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Well this is all just marketing isn't it?
Most of the tatt people in my town will not touch eyeliner, and you know what...I send all the shoudler butterflies to them!
In my town I will tell you, most for the tattoo people are sitting out front of there stores chain smoking in between clients. They are covered from head to toe in tatts.
My Ladies would never go near that establishment.Are they artist?..you bet!
I was the one who said I thought they were light years ahead....I think that by the time a body artist moves into pm they understand needles and skin and color, much more than a person with average pm training, not to mention blood issues!
They understand the basic diffrences between pens and coils, break down set up....I also believe they apprentice one other a little better.
I really could relate the comment "poop in saran wrap" for spas... so funny and so true.
Deborah
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scouser1
149 posts
Jun 30, 2009
5:15 PM
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Deborah is absolutely 100% right in her evaluation. And tattoo artists will always be judged harshly by "mainstream" no matter how clever their work is. It's the "bohemian thing" people don't get.
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