Maggie
1685 posts
Jun 02, 2009
1:48 PM
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I pulled this out of the muck, Karla....
here is your post:
It has been my experience that placement is the biggest problem. It has also been my experience that most people do not know how to wear eyebrows and are looking at stencils and comparing their browns to magazine covers and trying to get it right through these models set before them.
Because of this, they will come in and show you what they do and so in giving a client what they want, that is what is done by a technician.
In some cases, the client cannot part with these pattern of brow because they have so closely ties themselves to it and others that really need some intervention and walked through baby steps of a better placed brow.
I would love to know what everyone does in their steps to develop a brow on a client.
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Karla Kwist,CPCP
Las Vegas
FAAM,CMI,OSHA Outreach Trainer
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Ms. M
239 posts
Jun 02, 2009
3:41 PM
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I ask all new brow clients to wear in the design they are accustomed to applying with pencil (if they do.)
I explain this gives me an instant visual as to how they and friends and family/co-workers are used to seeing her. Having her bring her pencil also (in conjunction with how it appears on her drawn on brows) gives me a hint as to the color she prefers. I try to come close as long as the color is not dramatic one way or the other.
Once the client is there, before I go into design work, I ask her how she feels about the design. More often than not, I hear, "I don't like it. They are uneven and I hope you can help me with design." Yippie
I then take a picture of her and how she wears her brows. I then take one of the brows off, cleaning the skin on and surrounding the brow leaving one as she arrived. I design a nice brow with a desinfected brow pencil and then show her the differences as she compares her drawn brow with mine.
Usually (not always but usually) the client sees how much better my brow makes her look; more rested and makes her eyes stand out.
If she doesn't instantly approve my brow, I ask her what it is about my brow design (totally ignoring hers at this point) that causes her to hesitate.
Usually this is a minor issue (length, position of the arch, bulb design, etc. Takes a few seconds to alter my initial brow to her satisfaction.
If we can get that far, then I know we can do business. I'm very dedicated to this process and it only takes a few minutes. I don't mess around. I need to know if I'm going to be able to please her before I get into the nitty gritty of the procedure.
If she likes my brow, I take a picture of how she appears with her one brow, and my other brow drawn on.
If I intend to use anesthetic I clean off both brows and the surrounding skin and take an official "before" picture.
I then apply anesthetic and begin the set up process so she can witness it. Usually her time is spent filling out her forms.
If she doesn't like my brow, and insists on her version of a brow and if I simply cannot work with her design, I pass on the work. Karla is right on when she says in some cases the client cannot part with the pattern she is accustomed to seeing. I don't find it a lot but I sure have dealt with it before.
Overall by having her wear in her brows, not only does it give me an instant visual, but I try to design my brows in concert with some of her preferences. If they are longer, although I would never agree to too long, I might give them just a bit length I would not otherwise. If she likes a rounded bulb, I design more of a rounded bulb, although they are not my favorite I can put a little spin on the bulb that is not exactly round, but sorta round. Seems to work.
If she likes a higher arch, as long as it is attractive and does not depart from the natural flow of the brow design or natural hair in the area, I will make the arch slightly higher. I want to give her something she recognizes, but brows that are symmetric and tasteful.
I never agree to come in too far in the bulb positioning.
Once it is a done deal, I secure the brow template and do my job.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Hope I don't have too many typos.
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Ms. M
240 posts
Jun 02, 2009
3:53 PM
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Oh and I tell them if they bring me a picture of themselves 30 years ago or a picture from a magazine, I will charge extra for wasting my time looking at something that doesn't mean anything.
No, not really, but I think I've said it a couple of times in jest.
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Rozan
693 posts
Jun 02, 2009
5:59 PM
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Brilliant Miss M,
And when I say “Brilliant” I feel like Simon Cowl, ~snort~
What I actually mean….. wait, I still hear my voice in a British accent…. Wait for it, wait for it……
Okay, enough.
Seriously. You have just verbalized the EXACT FHRASE I’ve imparted to a zillion of my clients. BRAVO MISS M.
As Simon would say, ‘SUPER’!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rose Ann Cloud, CPCP
Permanent Cosmetics By Rozan
www.RozanCloud.com
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frostellie
329 posts
Jun 02, 2009
6:12 PM
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I ask the client what she likes and doesn't like about her brows (if she has any.) I mix up the pigment wash and paint one brow on with a brush considering the shape of her face and her preferences. I once had a client who came in with these really skinny half-circles over her eyes. She came in with her partner, thankfully. I asked her if I could just try something and see what she thinks. I painted a pretty "normal" brow and her partner was delighted and said it was beautiful. You could tell she had been wanting to say something to her about her brows for a long time and didn't know how. My client said she liked it too. Another client I had a couple week ago came in with very little real hair left in her brows, but one was seriously about 1/2" above/below the other. She didn't see it too much, but it was glaringly obvious. Her husband was there and I painted them on evenly and he liked it a lot. When I was finished, she said it was the first time her eyebrows ever matched. I basically suggest that the client "humor me" while I try what I think. I don't think I've ever had anyone disagree unless they just wanted something more severe, which I explain I don't do on the first procedure. I want my clients to look their best and give them beautiful brows, and I am also aware that each and every brow I do has my name on it so I would never do anything outrageous.
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stylist
209 posts
Jun 02, 2009
8:46 PM
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Bravo Miss M, Another good example of why I read this board. I like to compare procedures,Nice post!!!
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Brandy
629 posts
Jun 02, 2009
10:19 PM
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Ms.M, you're the BOMB!!!
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Ms. M
241 posts
Jun 02, 2009
10:40 PM
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Thank you all. I know that by heart so it was an easy post and I dont think anyone will get mad about it. Yippie - It's a good day.
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KatALyst
89 posts
Jun 03, 2009
7:23 AM
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haha- amen on the 30 yr old photo that doesn't help any! That was halarious because it happens pretty often. Thanks for the laugh.
_____________
I take their photo, print it out on my photo printer, and draw some nice brows right on it (it helps to put some clear tape on) so they can see it on themselves.
After they sign the consent forms and charts, and note any skin allergies, I ask them if they have any skin allergies, and then apply a thin coat of numbing gel kept in place with a clear wrap for about 20-30 min. (Its been my experience that eyebrows take the longest to numb.)
Afterwards, I clean it all off, take out my 12-pack of sharpies (disposed of after) and go to work designing them by hand. It may take just a few minutes, or it may take 30, but we take our time until we're both completely happy with them. Placement should look natural, if possible, as close to their hairs as possible unless there is too much uneven. If they have no hairs, then its more or less up to us, but I try not to stray too far from the brow bone, although sometimes the natural brow is lower than I want. Definitely no 'forehead' brows tho. I let the client and myself decide what looks best on them, but I never use any 'stencils' or made-up guides.
Then I use the machine to trace over the guides using the hair stroke techniques. I was trained to do the eyebrows directly behind them, (almost as if their head was in my lap) as opposed to side-by-side, and use a mirror directly over them as that will give me the look of as if I stood directly over them, but here I can line everything up evenly and then use the mirror to see it perfectly. Especially after doing a 2 hr long eyeliner side-by-side, is sitting behind them a nice little treat for my back. Even when I tweeze my girlfriend's eyebrows, I have them lay on a pillow in my lap with a mirror. It just seems to work the best with me.
That's how I do it.
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
Last Edited on 3-Jun-2009 7:27 AM
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Brandy
630 posts
Jun 03, 2009
8:39 AM
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This is a good thread. Some very good tips from all of you.
The one thing I do not do, is pre numb before drawing the brows on. I find that the numbing can sometimes cause the skin to pull a bit in one direction or another. I call it the numbing tug. I don't want anything that may distort the initial guide that is drawn on. My ladies have all been okay with no pre numb. So I just draw the brows on and I tell them they are going to feel a little prickling for a minute per side and I tell them it will hurt less than tweezing. Then I lightly tattoo the guide, wipe everything off and then apply numbing, let it sit for around five minutes and we are good to go.
Last Edited on 3-Jun-2009 8:40 AM
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Eyeloveit
162 posts
Jun 03, 2009
9:15 AM
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I ditto Ms. M, that is almost the exact way I do the designing with my clients. I say almost because I am failing to do something...a picture of the designed brow. Great tip. I always do a before and after but never the design. Another level of back up for what they approve...thanks. I tell them on the phone at the initial inquiry or during the consultation that they will be a part of the design work and will assist me and approve their design before a needle ever touches them. Then I usually hear a huge sigh of relief.
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frostellie
331 posts
Jun 03, 2009
9:20 AM
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It never occurred to me that the pre numb would distort the skin. I never noticed that happening, but it sure is a good safeguard and the guide is not too painful. I use a shader and wash for most everyone on the first visit, so I use the shader to mark my guide "lines." What do you use?
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LiZa
3423 posts
Jun 03, 2009
3:09 PM
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this is cheesy but a fun addition: when i take the pic of the designed brow in pencil that i've templated with my sharpie by 'dotting' i have them smile with 'thumbs up'. haha.. my thinking being that in the unfortunate case of litigation... i hve photographic evidence that they were happy with the design and i have my 'after' pic showing the design was replicated in the tattoo. thumbs up!!
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Liza Sims, Wake Up w/ Makeup LLC, Alaska
Permanent Makeup MythBuster Blog
Cosmetic Tattoo Home
LI Pigments Online Store
Citius, Altius, Fortius!
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Lizzy
947 posts
Jun 03, 2009
8:24 PM
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I do ask the client to come in with her own version of brows. I take a picture, wipe off her design, take another photo, and tell them I will then draw a design that we can work together on.
Of course all the in between comfort talk.
I used to wipe off the one brow and draw my design on the other but what I found is they "him and hawed" over it too much.
This way I get theirs off of there.I have a digital camera with a very large screen that they can see, and we can go back and forth between their design and mine. I find it faster that way for "us" to decide.
I spend way to much time designing brows though.I think I have "fast and slow" brow designing days.
I use a sharpie to template, and wipe away most of the pencil and put a little pre numb on there while I'm setting up.
I do a light pass over the whole brow, Blue gel then go to town.
I've gone back to a soft fill brow with a large needle instead of strokes. I like the way they age.Soft and pretty. The healing proces is a little crustier than a hiarstroke technique but worth the results for me.
Lizzy
Last Edited on 3-Jun-2009 8:26 PM
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Ms. M
244 posts
Jun 03, 2009
9:44 PM
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Liza, I want to be on the jury when they pass that picture around HA HA. How cute.
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Lizzy
948 posts
Jun 04, 2009
7:59 AM
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The image that came to mind was from the "Jack Ass" show where "Stevo" had a tattoo of himself put on his back. Thumbs up!
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karla kwist
406 posts
Jun 09, 2009
10:24 PM
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Love the photo op idea! It is so much better when you have a few options and they can line them up and see, I think it is the most effective in connecting the person with the right brow.
I think that clients put a lot of trust in us and in the end, it is their look and they have to feel good in their skin and so sometimes the perfect brow for them is somewhere between what we suggest and what the client wants.
I can't tell you how many times I bought something and thought it was the greatest thing ever and then two weeks later had buyers remorse "what was I thinking?" when I take another look at it.
I like giving them options and am a huge fan of starting small.
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Karla Kwist,CPCP
Las Vegas
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facecrafter
753 posts
Jun 10, 2009
3:04 PM
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OK Here is a tip that I use.
I went to Lenscrafters and got a brown plastic
frame-only pair of eyeglasses that they were going to throw away. The top of the frame has to be more or less straight across.
I have the client put them on and I use them to make sure the brows are even. I move them up and down to check, including all the way up so that the brow is completely within the frame. I do this after they are numb and after I have drawn them on using the pigment. (NOTE: the frame never touches the brows, and is always cleaned between each client anyway)
It is a great tool for getting the height even, the origins in the same place, and the arches hitting the same point on each brow. And it is quick!
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Be well and beautiful,
:)udy
judy@facecrafter.com
www.facecrafter.com
941-351-1333
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facecrafter
754 posts
Jun 10, 2009
3:07 PM
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Also, (most of you already know this but...)
having the client close their eyes relaxes their brows, so you don't get the one brow up syndrome.
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Be well and beautiful,
:)udy
judy@facecrafter.com
www.facecrafter.com
941-351-1333
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Maggie
1702 posts
Jun 10, 2009
4:21 PM
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Interesting idea, Judy, on the glasses. I guess we just have to be sure their ears are on their head evenly.
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Brandy
636 posts
Jun 10, 2009
6:02 PM
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Ears on evenly! Ha ha.
Judy your idea is great for those that want an even brow straight across (which most of us are aiming for). But I find that the women that have one eye noticebly lower than the other, sometimes perceive the brows to be uneven when they are perfectly sraight across. This is because they now have more space from the top of one eye to the brow than on the other side.
For these women I draw them on both ways, straight across the top, take a picture and then I draw them on the same distance upwards from both eyes. I hope this makes sense. Then take a picture and ask them which way is more pleasing to their eye.
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KatALyst
100 posts
Jun 10, 2009
8:29 PM
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Judy, that's interesting that you use the glasses method. The woman that trained me said that people's ears that the glasses rest on are never symmetrical so just by the glasses, its not possible to completely tell if the brows are even. Her training method was to place a pen/pencil etc across each brow to make sure that were the same placement, height, etc. That's what she said anyway, but I'm inclined to agree at least in some way because faces are rarely symmetrical.
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
Last Edited on 10-Jun-2009 8:30 PM
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Lizzy
949 posts
Jun 10, 2009
8:43 PM
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I was at the office supply store last year.After seeing a clear bendable(?) ruler and got an idea to use it as a measuring tool for brows.I dont use it often but when your having one of those hard to balance brows it is a great help. It is marked like graft paper and in 1/2 increments.
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facecrafter
755 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:37 PM
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I can see if the glasses are uneven. I am holding them even. For the most part, people's ears and faces are even, it is just the occasional one that isn't.. This is my final check after they are drawn, and it has always been easy for me to see if I'm "off." It may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
I also use a long stem cotton swab across the brows, but that's only good for the top line. Glasses are good for everything--for me anyway.
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Be well and beautiful,
:)udy
judy@facecrafter.com
www.facecrafter.com
941-351-1333
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facecrafter
756 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:42 PM
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I should note that when someone comes in, with even or with very uneven brows, or eyes, or cheeks (which make the eyes seem uneven), we work on the design first. After it is OK'd (height, shape, etc.) Then I draw them and then I use the glasses.
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Be well and beautiful,
:)udy
judy@facecrafter.com
www.facecrafter.com
941-351-1333
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Ms. M
249 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:47 PM
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I'm personally not a brow outliner. Maybe some have mastered the art of EXACTLY drawing around a brow, but dots are for me. If you are using a marker pen of some sort, dot very lightly. It's not a hard press. Dot like a pogo stick methodically around the brow beginning at the tail marching up toward the bulb on both sides of the brow and then switch to the opposite brow. I stand over the client and lift the bulbs upwardly by placing my left hand (I'm right handed) on the forehead and lifting slightly. I look from one bulb to the other as I'm dotting around the bulbs to ensure both are exactaly the same. Usually light dots are enough for 2 passes and then they begin to disapate. Topical anesthetic usually takes off whatever faint dots remain.
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karla kwist
409 posts
Jun 12, 2009
12:01 AM
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Five stars on eyeglasses as a guide.
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Karla Kwist,CPCP
Las Vegas
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Jane Adler
1021 posts
Jun 12, 2009
8:37 AM
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Ditto to Ms. M !!!!!
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Jane Adler, CPCP
Facial Art by Jane
SofTap® Distributor
http://www.janeadler.com
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KatALyst
103 posts
Jun 13, 2009
12:33 PM
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Do you all draw them on with the patient sitting up? Gravity makes a big difference. Those clients that tend to 'arch' or 'lift' one up when they talk or stand up, those brows can have a tendency to relax or even lower a little bit when they lay back. So the tendency might be to 'raise' it up slightly since it could look a little lower...but then they stand up and POW that sucker is WAY higher. That's just one possibility, but I was trained to only draw on eyebrows and lips with the person sitting or standing up and looking about at my chin, which will keep them from having any funny "arched" or "furrowed" or "pinched" expressions which could alter the relaxed nature of the shape. That way, when they lay back, I know to trust our guide, not the way it looks when they are laying down flat.
As for the guides, I draw mine on in the hairstroke since that is what I use during the procedure. Similar to dots I guess? But yes, just enough to know where all the placement is... That's just how I have developed doing it...
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~Kat, CPCP~
SPCP Member & Certified
Western KY
www.CosmeticBeautySalon.com
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bpretty
66 posts
Jun 13, 2009
8:24 PM
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I personally think the glasses is very a clever idea to double check brows design.
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lipkisslips
8 posts
Jun 16, 2009
4:48 PM
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Ms. M... Love your post!
Just wanted to clear up my confusion. Do you use a template? you stated earlier that you "secure brow template" Just wondering how exactly you do this and if you use a marker... how do you apply your dots so you know to go inside the dots or stay on top of them or to go just barely outside? I have done it many ways and do it almost exactly like you explained but I am recently looking for a better way? I keep wondering if I could do it easier somehow? When you said template i was confused just a bit. Thanks
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karla kwist
410 posts
Jun 16, 2009
10:31 PM
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I have them sitting up. I have them smile and squint and watch them move to see if the placement works in their everyday life.
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Karla Kwist,CPCP
Las Vegas
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Ms. M
251 posts
Jun 16, 2009
11:20 PM
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LIpkisslips, I do not use templates. That was just a figure of speach to refer to the brow I had drawn on the client. My very small light dots are placed very methodically adacent to the parameter of the drawn brow. Thanks for asking. If you have the SPCP textbook, there is a photo of that technique in the book.
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